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	<title>Comments on: Prediction Without Markets</title>
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		<title>By: Carl Lumma</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-5046</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Lumma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 21:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-5046</guid>
		<description>First of all, 3% is huge, and even 1% is significant on many tasks.  Secondly, prediction markets have other important advantages, such as being harder to manipulate, and being self-funding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, 3% is huge, and even 1% is significant on many tasks.  Secondly, prediction markets have other important advantages, such as being harder to manipulate, and being self-funding.</p>
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		<title>By: Gates Hillman Prediction Market: The Movie: Oddhead Blog: Prediction Markets, Gambling, Electronic Commerce, Artificial Intelligence: David Pennock: Yahoo! Research</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-2409</link>
		<dc:creator>Gates Hillman Prediction Market: The Movie: Oddhead Blog: Prediction Markets, Gambling, Electronic Commerce, Artificial Intelligence: David Pennock: Yahoo! Research</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2010 02:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-2409</guid>
		<description>[...] plenty of precedent, and despite increasing evidence that non-market methods do surprisingly well too,* I still find it astonishing to see a bunch of people play a subtle [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] plenty of precedent, and despite increasing evidence that non-market methods do surprisingly well too,* I still find it astonishing to see a bunch of people play a subtle [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Hibbert</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1537</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Hibbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 03:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1537</guid>
		<description>Top tier sports, national elections, and Hollywood releases are all arenas in which all the information one might analyze is already pretty much public.  There are many methods for predicting these outcomes, and I wouldn&#039;t argue that Prediction Markets have a huge advantage in these arenas.  The markets where I expect PMs to have an advantage are where there are experts who, given an incentive, could share (or discover) information that&#039;s not already public, and where you don&#039;t already have an enormous crowd trying to figure out the answer.  Certainly it&#039;s fun to bet on your team or party, or to develop expertise on how the public will react to particular movies, but it&#039;s not clear to me that we get better predictions in those areas.

This is also one of my criticisms of the Servan-Schreiber paper.  While I believe  there are probably markets in which the availability of serious money to be won could attract people who&#039;d be willing to spend research in order to get a better answer, NFL sports isn&#039;t an arena where spending thousands of dollars will help you uncover facts that aren&#039;t already in the mainstream media.

When we talk about CEO markets, or product release dates, or market penetration numbers, we&#039;re talking about markets in which the information isn&#039;t already out there, and some people will spend time and effort to ferret out relevant facts for reputation (we see this often on Foresight Exchange) or money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Top tier sports, national elections, and Hollywood releases are all arenas in which all the information one might analyze is already pretty much public.  There are many methods for predicting these outcomes, and I wouldn&#8217;t argue that Prediction Markets have a huge advantage in these arenas.  The markets where I expect PMs to have an advantage are where there are experts who, given an incentive, could share (or discover) information that&#8217;s not already public, and where you don&#8217;t already have an enormous crowd trying to figure out the answer.  Certainly it&#8217;s fun to bet on your team or party, or to develop expertise on how the public will react to particular movies, but it&#8217;s not clear to me that we get better predictions in those areas.</p>
<p>This is also one of my criticisms of the Servan-Schreiber paper.  While I believe  there are probably markets in which the availability of serious money to be won could attract people who&#8217;d be willing to spend research in order to get a better answer, NFL sports isn&#8217;t an arena where spending thousands of dollars will help you uncover facts that aren&#8217;t already in the mainstream media.</p>
<p>When we talk about CEO markets, or product release dates, or market penetration numbers, we&#8217;re talking about markets in which the information isn&#8217;t already out there, and some people will spend time and effort to ferret out relevant facts for reputation (we see this often on Foresight Exchange) or money.</p>
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		<title>By: S. Arnesen</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1515</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Arnesen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1515</guid>
		<description>Thank you for an interesting paper. As a political scientist I will comment on your discussion on political predictions:
I would question the validity in analyzing entertainment and sports events to make claims about the accuracy of political elections. You indeed acknowledge this in the paper, but maintain your claim that this paper has relevance for political forecasts (by referring to other studies). I disagree with this approach.

I think the dynamics of elections - which as a rule take place every four years or so - are much harder to capture by using statistical models than sports events are. They occur less frequently, and in very different contexts. What can the outcome of a presidential election in 1948 tell us about the outcome in 2012? A little bit, perhaps, but not much. Traders in prediction markets pay much more attention to the particular context every election takes place, and I believe this is one of the strengths of this method.

Understanding why voters vote the way they do is very hard to capture, especially in advance(!). Wlezien and Erikson claim that polls adjusted with some structural variables are equally good or better than market predictions. That may be true, but if I remember correctly that analysis was made after the result was known, which is another playing field. 

I will gladly endorse another method if it outperforms prediciton markets in accuracy, but so far they have been the best tool in predicting the vote ex-ante. Once the market is up an running it is also cost-efficient for the organizer, and produces continuously updated predictions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for an interesting paper. As a political scientist I will comment on your discussion on political predictions:<br />
I would question the validity in analyzing entertainment and sports events to make claims about the accuracy of political elections. You indeed acknowledge this in the paper, but maintain your claim that this paper has relevance for political forecasts (by referring to other studies). I disagree with this approach.</p>
<p>I think the dynamics of elections &#8211; which as a rule take place every four years or so &#8211; are much harder to capture by using statistical models than sports events are. They occur less frequently, and in very different contexts. What can the outcome of a presidential election in 1948 tell us about the outcome in 2012? A little bit, perhaps, but not much. Traders in prediction markets pay much more attention to the particular context every election takes place, and I believe this is one of the strengths of this method.</p>
<p>Understanding why voters vote the way they do is very hard to capture, especially in advance(!). Wlezien and Erikson claim that polls adjusted with some structural variables are equally good or better than market predictions. That may be true, but if I remember correctly that analysis was made after the result was known, which is another playing field. </p>
<p>I will gladly endorse another method if it outperforms prediciton markets in accuracy, but so far they have been the best tool in predicting the vote ex-ante. Once the market is up an running it is also cost-efficient for the organizer, and produces continuously updated predictions.</p>
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		<title>By: David K. Park</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1468</link>
		<dc:creator>David K. Park</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2010 02:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1468</guid>
		<description>Nice to have more data points showing that prediction markets are not superior to other alternative forecasting methods. All the examples in the paper have a &quot;large&quot; sample, however, if you had a relatively &quot;small&quot; amount of data, which forecasting model would you choose? Prediction markets or something else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice to have more data points showing that prediction markets are not superior to other alternative forecasting methods. All the examples in the paper have a &#8220;large&#8221; sample, however, if you had a relatively &#8220;small&#8221; amount of data, which forecasting model would you choose? Prediction markets or something else?</p>
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		<title>By: dreeves</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1459</link>
		<dc:creator>dreeves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1459</guid>
		<description>@Robin Hanson:  It&#039;s true that the relative advantage of prediction markets may be more pronounced in other domains.  Indeed, when we first analyzed the football data we thought maybe football games are just particularly unpredictable.  (Quoting ourselves from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cam.cornell.edu/~sharad/papers/pred-wo-markets.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the paper&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;it is possible that football remains a special case even in the domain of sports in that outcomes are dominated by hard to anticipant events---a hail Mary pass in the final minutes, for example, or an intercepted ball against the flow of play---for which there is relatively little real information on which to base sophisticated predictions.&quot;)

Prediction markets for baseball, we predicted, would perform better.  Many more statistics are gathered for baseball and conventional wisdom has it that many variables like pitching rotation and recent batting performance of individual players need to be accounted for in predicting game outcomes.  But again, simple statistical models that ignore all that do essentially as well as the market.

So maybe sports in general are an exception?  That&#039;s why we decided to try another domain that prediction market advocates have pointed to to showcase their efficacy: predicting box office revenue for movies.  Same story.

And as we&#039;ve been discussing in the comments above, for political elections it&#039;s deja vu all over again.

So I think you&#039;re making a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;God of the Gaps&lt;/a&gt; argument here.

As for the plots, we evaluate the prediction methods on RMSE and discrimination as well as calibration in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cam.cornell.edu/~sharad/papers/pred-wo-markets.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the paper&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robin Hanson:  It&#8217;s true that the relative advantage of prediction markets may be more pronounced in other domains.  Indeed, when we first analyzed the football data we thought maybe football games are just particularly unpredictable.  (Quoting ourselves from <a href="http://www.cam.cornell.edu/~sharad/papers/pred-wo-markets.pdf" rel="nofollow">the paper</a>: &#8220;it is possible that football remains a special case even in the domain of sports in that outcomes are dominated by hard to anticipant events&#8212;a hail Mary pass in the final minutes, for example, or an intercepted ball against the flow of play&#8212;for which there is relatively little real information on which to base sophisticated predictions.&#8221;)</p>
<p>Prediction markets for baseball, we predicted, would perform better.  Many more statistics are gathered for baseball and conventional wisdom has it that many variables like pitching rotation and recent batting performance of individual players need to be accounted for in predicting game outcomes.  But again, simple statistical models that ignore all that do essentially as well as the market.</p>
<p>So maybe sports in general are an exception?  That&#8217;s why we decided to try another domain that prediction market advocates have pointed to to showcase their efficacy: predicting box office revenue for movies.  Same story.</p>
<p>And as we&#8217;ve been discussing in the comments above, for political elections it&#8217;s deja vu all over again.</p>
<p>So I think you&#8217;re making a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps" rel="nofollow">God of the Gaps</a> argument here.</p>
<p>As for the plots, we evaluate the prediction methods on RMSE and discrimination as well as calibration in <a href="http://www.cam.cornell.edu/~sharad/papers/pred-wo-markets.pdf" rel="nofollow">the paper</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1456</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1456</guid>
		<description>Whoever said that every prediction market would always be more accurate than any other mechanism?  I&#039;d say they are more-accurate more often than they are less-accurate, compared to mechanisms with similar resources.  And your plots at the bottom look like they are testing calibration, not accuracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoever said that every prediction market would always be more accurate than any other mechanism?  I&#8217;d say they are more-accurate more often than they are less-accurate, compared to mechanisms with similar resources.  And your plots at the bottom look like they are testing calibration, not accuracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharad Goel</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1455</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharad Goel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1455</guid>
		<description>@Tom: Our results do in fact suggest that the firehose of sports data does little to improve predictions. If those data did lead to big improvements, one would expect that markets would also perform substantially better than our simple model (which we don&#039;t see). Maybe that fact should have been &quot;obvious&quot; before we completed our study; regardless, prediction market experts have pointed to sports as a domain that showcases the power of markets, and it is that claim that we address.

I agree that with the statistically corrected polls, one has to be careful not to overfit the models. Erikson and Wlezien, however, guard against this by only using data from past elections to predict the outcomes of future elections. While one could still conceivably overfit by testing a large number of models, the model they use seems quite natural.

You&#039;re right that I&#039;m using &quot;insider&quot; too loosely. To clarify, I was alluding to situations (like the terrorist attack example given by Keith) where some small group of hard to identify individuals has crucial information. Such circumstances are quite different from the domains we analyze, and as such, I&#039;m open to the possibility that the relative advantage of markets may be larger in those situations. By contrast, the policy examples of Hahn and Tetlock are much more similar to the sports and entertainment domains we consider. In all three domains, while there are certainly people who are more knowledgeable than others, the relevant information would seem to be much more widely distributed. In particular, I suspect that for policy predictions, a poll of academics, or perhaps estimates compiled by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), would be about as accurate as a prediction market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tom: Our results do in fact suggest that the firehose of sports data does little to improve predictions. If those data did lead to big improvements, one would expect that markets would also perform substantially better than our simple model (which we don&#8217;t see). Maybe that fact should have been &#8220;obvious&#8221; before we completed our study; regardless, prediction market experts have pointed to sports as a domain that showcases the power of markets, and it is that claim that we address.</p>
<p>I agree that with the statistically corrected polls, one has to be careful not to overfit the models. Erikson and Wlezien, however, guard against this by only using data from past elections to predict the outcomes of future elections. While one could still conceivably overfit by testing a large number of models, the model they use seems quite natural.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that I&#8217;m using &#8220;insider&#8221; too loosely. To clarify, I was alluding to situations (like the terrorist attack example given by Keith) where some small group of hard to identify individuals has crucial information. Such circumstances are quite different from the domains we analyze, and as such, I&#8217;m open to the possibility that the relative advantage of markets may be larger in those situations. By contrast, the policy examples of Hahn and Tetlock are much more similar to the sports and entertainment domains we consider. In all three domains, while there are certainly people who are more knowledgeable than others, the relevant information would seem to be much more widely distributed. In particular, I suspect that for policy predictions, a poll of academics, or perhaps estimates compiled by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), would be about as accurate as a prediction market.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Brow</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1454</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Brow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 21:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1454</guid>
		<description>&quot;Particularly in sports, given the plethora of available data (e.g., individual player stats, pitching rotation, weather conditions, etc.) on which to base complex predictions, one would think experts, and hence markets, might also have a more substantial advantage.&quot;

I&#039;d give even odds that a football expert can&#039;t do much better with that fire hose of data than a run-of-the-mill &quot;football enthusiast&quot; can with her knowledge of the past few seasons&#039; outcomes.  But who knows?  It&#039;d be neat if your paper plotted the performance of some kind of pool of experts alongside the market and poll methods.  If the experts outperform the market, that makes a stronger argument that there exists inside information that the market fails to capture.

&quot;Finally, election markets—perhaps the most cited example of the power of prediction markets—exhibit the same phenomenon. In fact, the Iowa Electronic Markets (IEM) have been been outperformed by statistically adjusted polls [Erikson and Wlezien, 2008]...&quot;

Erikson and Wlezien make a good point that it&#039;s not fair to compare market predictions against raw poll results on a single day.  But it&#039;s also not fair to select a statistical adjustment that makes polls perform better in the past five elections, and then use those same five elections to evaluate your adjusted poll&#039;s performance.  Naturally, your adjusted poll (and many other arbitrary transformations of the poll data) will outperform the market at predicting the past.

To show that the poll predicts the future, we&#039;ll have to wait decades for a statistically significant number of future elections, or the same statistical adjustment will have to be tested in domains other than US presidential elections. 

&quot;In particular, the examples of Hahn and Tetlock—the impact of broader prescription coverage on the Medicare budget, the effect of more frequent audits on tax compliance, and the consequences of a political settlement in Iraq on oil prices—do not fall into this category [of situations where there are insiders].&quot;

I have to disagree.  While there may not be &quot;insiders&quot; in the sense of being privy to secret knowledge, there are certainly people whose experience and domain knowledge will enhance their predictive acumen.  If you could identify those people and poll them directly, that might give you the best prediction.  But the true experts are hard to pick out, and that is where markets are alleged to offer an advantage.

&quot;Thus, while prediction markets may yet prove to be useful, it would seem the enthusiasm for their predictive prowess has outpaced the evidence.

That much is hard to debate!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Particularly in sports, given the plethora of available data (e.g., individual player stats, pitching rotation, weather conditions, etc.) on which to base complex predictions, one would think experts, and hence markets, might also have a more substantial advantage.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d give even odds that a football expert can&#8217;t do much better with that fire hose of data than a run-of-the-mill &#8220;football enthusiast&#8221; can with her knowledge of the past few seasons&#8217; outcomes.  But who knows?  It&#8217;d be neat if your paper plotted the performance of some kind of pool of experts alongside the market and poll methods.  If the experts outperform the market, that makes a stronger argument that there exists inside information that the market fails to capture.</p>
<p>&#8220;Finally, election markets—perhaps the most cited example of the power of prediction markets—exhibit the same phenomenon. In fact, the Iowa Electronic Markets (IEM) have been been outperformed by statistically adjusted polls [Erikson and Wlezien, 2008]&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Erikson and Wlezien make a good point that it&#8217;s not fair to compare market predictions against raw poll results on a single day.  But it&#8217;s also not fair to select a statistical adjustment that makes polls perform better in the past five elections, and then use those same five elections to evaluate your adjusted poll&#8217;s performance.  Naturally, your adjusted poll (and many other arbitrary transformations of the poll data) will outperform the market at predicting the past.</p>
<p>To show that the poll predicts the future, we&#8217;ll have to wait decades for a statistically significant number of future elections, or the same statistical adjustment will have to be tested in domains other than US presidential elections. </p>
<p>&#8220;In particular, the examples of Hahn and Tetlock—the impact of broader prescription coverage on the Medicare budget, the effect of more frequent audits on tax compliance, and the consequences of a political settlement in Iraq on oil prices—do not fall into this category [of situations where there are insiders].&#8221;</p>
<p>I have to disagree.  While there may not be &#8220;insiders&#8221; in the sense of being privy to secret knowledge, there are certainly people whose experience and domain knowledge will enhance their predictive acumen.  If you could identify those people and poll them directly, that might give you the best prediction.  But the true experts are hard to pick out, and that is where markets are alleged to offer an advantage.</p>
<p>&#8220;Thus, while prediction markets may yet prove to be useful, it would seem the enthusiasm for their predictive prowess has outpaced the evidence.</p>
<p>That much is hard to debate!</p>
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		<title>By: Sharad Goel</title>
		<link>http://messymatters.com/2010/01/14/prediction-without-markets/comment-page-1/#comment-1453</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharad Goel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://messymatters.com/?p=581#comment-1453</guid>
		<description>@Abacus: Could you point me to the paper that you&#039;re talking about? The paper I found (&quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=891232&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Prediction Markets in Theory and Practice&lt;/a&gt;,&quot; by Wolfers and Zitzewitz) states that Gallup polls had absolute error of 1.9% in predicting vote share on the eve of presidential elections, while the IEM had an error of 1.6%. I didn&#039;t see the Intrade vs. Gallup comparison. 

Also, as Erikson and Wlezien (2008) argue, statistically adjusted polls perform better than the raw polling numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Abacus: Could you point me to the paper that you&#8217;re talking about? The paper I found (&#8220;<a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=891232" rel="nofollow">Prediction Markets in Theory and Practice</a>,&#8221; by Wolfers and Zitzewitz) states that Gallup polls had absolute error of 1.9% in predicting vote share on the eve of presidential elections, while the IEM had an error of 1.6%. I didn&#8217;t see the Intrade vs. Gallup comparison. </p>
<p>Also, as Erikson and Wlezien (2008) argue, statistically adjusted polls perform better than the raw polling numbers.</p>
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